The HR Community Podcast
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Civitas Talent is excited to bring you a series of podcasts dedicated to the HR community. This is a space where you can learn best-practice solutions from HR community leaders, with host Shane O'Neill.
Whether you’re a CEO, HR executive or operating across the wider HR sector - this podcast is for you!
The HR Community Podcast
The HR Community Podcast: Marnie Gibson, T2, From Theater to Global HR Leadership
📽️In this new HR Community Podcast episode, as part of our value-add series, we hosted Dr Marnie Gibson, Global People Director for T2 Tea. T2 Tea is a chain of specialty tea shops with stores across APAC. The company was established in Melbourne in 1996.
Ever wondered how an aspiring actor becomes a global HR leader? Join us as Marnie Gibson, the Global People's Director for T2, takes us on her remarkable journey from the theater to the boardroom.
Marnie is a seasoned Global People Leader, having led HR for a several brands including PwC, Treasury Wine Estates and City of Port Phillip across a diverse range of industries. She is a Doctorate in HR and a true though leader in Organisations Development.
You'll learn how her diverse experiences across industries like financial services, retail, and mining have shaped her unique approach to HR. Marnie also shares her academic milestones, including earning a doctorate in Organizational Development and her role as a lecturer, shedding light on the importance of practical HR education. This episode is packed with career advice and insights that will inspire both budding HR professionals and seasoned veterans.
Facing the challenges of the fourth industrial revolution and the post-COVID workplace head-on, Marnie discusses how organizations are adapting to new realities like employee disengagement and leader burnout. Discover why traditional engagement measurement tools are becoming obsolete and what cutting-edge strategies are proving effective today. We also draw lessons from public figures like Kylie, emphasizing resilience and reinvention as keys to thriving in the modern workplace. Wrapping up with a nod to Mary Poppins, we explore how adding a dash of fun can transform the work environment into something truly special. Don't miss this engaging conversation that promises to leave you both informed and inspired.
Welcome to the HR Community Podcast. My name is Shane O'Neill, founder of Civitas Talent, the HR and HSE recruitment community. Each episode, we will host HR leaders and discuss their journey and discover best practice HR solutions across the HR industry. Whether you're a CEO, hr executive or operating across the wider HR space, this podcast is for you. Please like and subscribe, and don't forget to comment and share your views. Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2:Good morning everyone. Welcome to another episode of the HR Community Podcast. This morning I am joined with Marnie Gibson. Marnie is the Global People's Director for T2. Good morning, marnie.
Speaker 3:Good morning, shane, great to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us. Well, I will hand the mic back to you.
Speaker 3:Tell us a little bit about yourself, Marnie, and tell us a little bit about yourself, mernie, and uh, tell us a little bit about your uh, your current role in organization, sure, sure, so look, I uh, I'm a hr practitioner professional through and through started my career in hr and over the years I've worked through a number of different industries financial services, uh, retail, fmcg, mining, government and I guess what you'd see in all of that is a lot of variety. I haven't stayed in one industry for long, but my thoughts on that is people are people, no matter where you go, and I'm naturally just a very curious person just wanting to understand, yeah, different industries and see things through different lenses. So that's been my journey and currently people director for T2 and Lipton T2 Fusion. So now that we're owned by a bigger global business, just working through what that means for T2. And also, on the side, I, a number of years ago, worked in an OB specialist role.
Speaker 3:I got really, really into OD. I just loved everything about it. So I got really deep and completed my doctorate in that area and then, as a result and I still do a bit of research in that area, but as a result I'm also now a lecturer at University of Southern Queensland. I lecture um MBA and Masters HR students in HR and OD disciplines, but I also write the HR programs for uh Victoria University.
Speaker 3:So the rationale behind doing that on top of my full-time job is that I feel like I, you know, get to network with a lot of people that I wouldn't normally Like. I'm kind of getting paid to network and meet other HR people, which is ace, but also I think, having myself studied HR, having had interns through our business, realise that a lot of what we get taught and what they get taught is just so impractical. So if I can influence the practicality of HR as an area of study, then I feel like it's my duty to do so. Yeah, I'd say both these unis have really practical approaches to HR and really transferable skill sets straight into work.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. I will definitely dive back into that OD side very soon. But in terms of that journey that you touched on, working across different industries, different sectors, different roles where did it kind of all all start for you, marnie? Did you um finish your degree, move straight into HR, were you in HR for a couple of years and then um decide to to go back to uni? Like, how did it all begin?
Speaker 3:Um, I, I did not have a typical journey because, uh, I actually started as an actor. Oh wow, I studied performing arts. I went to the Victorian College of Arts and studied to be an actor, and that's what I was going to do oh wow.
Speaker 3:Whilst trying to get into that, I had completed two years of an undergrad degree in sociology and English communications which had the sociology elements were, you know, partly psych related as well. So I had two years of that under my belt, then went off to become an actor and then post studying acting, I was doing a lot of work as a barista in hospital and, you know getting a few acting gigs here and there, and then I met someone who said, oh, have you ever considered getting into learning and development and training?
Speaker 3:You'd be really good at facilitating. And I was like, oh, yeah, maybe. And I kind of looked into it and went, oh, actually that doesn't sound too bad and, you know, probably a bit more interesting than you know brewing the coffees that I was baking day in, day out and ready for a change. So I, yeah, started kind of temping and getting a few contract things in L&D and then in HR and, yeah, one thing led to another where, yeah, I kind of landed in a role doing that and at the same time I went back and finished that final year of my study so I got my undergrad degree in there and then from there on in, it's just been a continuous journey of curiosity. I think, oh well, I've had a great mentor all along the way who at times has said, well, what times has said, well, what do you like, what do you don't like, what tools have you got in your toolbox? This is what kind of role or kind of industry I think you need to go into next.
Speaker 3:So that's been wonderful to have that input. So I think along the line just picked up, study and picked up, uh, gone into different roles, pending where I might need to develop myself personally or develop you know, whether it's a HR skill, like when I needed some more robustness in ER. Yeah, I went into local government for a period and, you know, negotiated enterprise agreements and all that. So it's kind of been, whilst, yeah, it's kind of been as deliberate as I could have been in terms of how it's all been built out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't want to make it sound too, you know, smooth and under control, because at times, it hasn't been as well. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I always love that question because it's so interesting to see, I guess, where people started and often why they got into HR. But I think that was the first acting story that I've had. I've had a karaoke singer, but then, yeah, it's really interesting to see where people come from. But it also kind of um and you touched on this a little bit it also kind of builds on that um uh, subject of hr, which is it's such a people focused role and it's about understanding, um you know how people operate, but also being, um, you know, comfortable in the uncomfortable and having that ability to go.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm curious, I want to figure out how to help these people. I'm curious, I want to figure out how to support this business. I'm curious, I want to try and develop myself and develop others. Such a unique role in that regard that you get to delve into those different elements, um, with your different industry um experiences. Do you feel like that ability to kind of move from local government, public sector into, you know, global retail um? Do you feel like that move was was quite challenging and um? The second part of that question really would be have you felt that's been an advantage to you in the sort of later years in your career.
Speaker 3:I think being able to transition industry actually works personally to my advantage, for two reasons. Firstly, I get bored really easily. I could not imagine being in the same industry that I was in, you know, 15, 20 years ago. I think firstly from the sense that, by virtue of doing HR in any particular company or industry, you learn about the company you learn about.
Speaker 3:You know the industry. I know, like right now, I know so much more about tea than I've ever known before and what any normal person would know. Similarly to when I worked in mining, I knew a lot more about ammonia than what I would ordinarily Like you.
Speaker 3:just, you know, by osmosis you learn a lot about and you should know a lot about what the people do in your business and what your business does, and yeah, I think that's really interesting. So, from the perspective of just getting deep on different issues and subjects, I think that works well. But also the other thing is and it's more related to, you know, as I think I've probably, you know, progressed my career in a sense. But you know, coming into an industry such as retail, I'd say you know, looking at HR from a retail perspective versus mining, for example, or you know blue collar manufacturing environments, you know there's a big difference in the safety element there. You know you look at mining at zero harm. The way the business is run from a risk perspective is entirely different, how you know the, the um, the psychology, and you know general demographic of people in mining is completely different to retail.
Speaker 3:So I I think the challenge, and you know the nuance and the interest for a HR person is like you can't just lift and shift interventions, you can't shift approaches. But also, you know different industries are at different levels of maturity as well, which means you know, I think I've gone into some companies and gone yeah, wow, that's a really sophisticated set-up and sophisticated way of operating which is necessary or needed in that kind of environment. However, that level of sophistication is perhaps not necessary or needed in more volume operations, or perhaps smaller operations, or whether it's global and you're looking after employees across China, or whatever it may be. I think the difference. I think, having seen how HR works in so many different environments, I've been able to go okay, well, I can take the best of you know all worlds and put it together to create something that is, you know, perhaps more customised. So I think that's you know, I think that's the benefit and, yeah, and I hope people see that as a benefit in and of itself, definitely yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, rather than just seeing one type of HR done one way in one company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it almost sounds as well from me thinking out loud is that kind of customization piece that you mentioned, along with going out there and acquiring that experience in different industries, acumen piece, um, which, again from a recruitment perspective, is one of the the key traits that a lot of businesses and executives look for in their, their hr leader, is that ability to be, to be commercial, to understand the business from a business perspective and then tailor how people, culture and performance kind of relates to that. I suppose is is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're so right, I think that's how I, you know, do go in going okay. Well, what are the people like for starters and how different are they Like what is ideal for them? But how much money have we got to play with? And you know, it's not a secret, some industries just naturally have more money to play with than others, and some companies naturally have more money to play with than others, and some companies naturally have more money to play for. So that really dictates what you can do.
Speaker 3:But I do think for a number of years, and perhaps even now and then, it's been really interesting that you know roles that I have been in contention for and people like, oh, you just haven't had any experience in this industry. And, yeah, I do at times think, oh, the recruit is being a bit short-sighted there, or you know, and I do get it to have someone come in and go, oh, yeah, naturally just so familiar with that award, or you know that way of operating. But at the same time it's like, oh, really, well, I don't know. I'd love to think that if you get what you always get, if you do what you always do, you're going to get what you always get.
Speaker 3:So a point of difference or other lenses might be useful, but it hasn't always been the way that my experience has been perceived, so I'd put that out there for anyone else. That's industry jumped a bit for anyone else. That's industry jumped a bit, you know, can be seen as a huge upside to those people that identify it as an opportunity.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely no, I totally agree. And you know we come across those challenges sometimes, particularly in recruitment processes where organisations are very keen to guess. I guess not so much a like for like, but it's almost that familiarity, it's that comfort zone. Okay, we've got three candidates that we're reviewing and one of them has worked in a similar industry supporting similar people, but then, like you said, the other two candidates that maybe haven't had that specific industry experience, imagine all the experience that they're bringing to the table that you can now benefit from. Maybe it is a point of difference, maybe it is a competitive advantage. So, yeah, I'm definitely pro for it and I know you touched on this a little bit at the start of the conversation as well, marnie is it's quite a transferable skill set to have. But I think yeah, when organizations start open their minds to different types of HR people, because we're not all in one box either.
Speaker 2:Different personalities, different skill sets, different industry experience, etc. Etc. So yeah, I think it's definitely an advantage. And then I guess, touching on that element of coming into business and being able to support their development, OD obviously being a huge interest and passion for you, Marnie, Tell us a little bit about what you've seen in OD, particularly over the last couple of years, Like what has been the transformation in OD there in your opinion? Like have you seen it's kind of evolved quite a bit.
Speaker 3:I think it has, but also I think it hasn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think you know, I think the wonderful thing at the moment is that a lot of big organisations dedicate resources, budget and expertise to it, which I think is fabulous and necessary. I think the fact that it's been recognised as not something that just happens, you've got to actually work on culture and happens.
Speaker 3:You've got to actively work on culture and leadership. You've got to actively work on building org capability, particularly now in this fourth industrial revolution. However, where I think perhaps it's not evolved or perhaps not changing at the pace it needs to, is post-COVID, in that, you know, taking culture and engagement as examples. In post, you know, we're in the fourth industrial revolution, it's post-COVID where navigating, you know, majority remote work and a very different employment environment that we had, you know, during and pre-COVID and I know I'm not saying anything remarkable by that. You know that's the context.
Speaker 1:And I guess for me.
Speaker 3:What I find fascinating, particularly office-based workers are now working more so remotely. We have, you know, the highest level of employee disengagement that we've ever seen.
Speaker 3:So, that's plummeted by post-COVID by around 30%, by some statistics. So the most employee disengagement ever. We've actually got the largest amount of leader burnout that we're ever looking at, because people are now coming to work and pre-COVID employees were more in a position to. You know, there was a greater separation between work life and home life Post-COVID and during COVID we went through this transition where you know employees now sharing with leaders, you know more about their mental health. There's, you know, psychosocial safety legislation which provides for greater sharing, greater, you know, needs for safety, trust, understanding, respect, inclusion, belonging in the workplace. What that is leading to is that, yeah, employees naturally do share more with their people, particularly their leaders at work, than what they ever have.
Speaker 3:I think the problem with that is that leaders A are not equipped to deal with that. They don't know or time bound in terms of doing that or in that, even if those boxes are ticked, the burden of carrying, you know, whether it's people's divorces or losing children or mental health, or you know other, um, perhaps prolonged illnesses. It is a lot for you know, a leader, perhaps of a team of eight, to manage if there are, you know, more individuals, individuals that require support. So we're seeing greater leader burning up and then, when you look at that, if then leaders are burning out, then culturally, that's where we're seeing. You know, people aren't feeling included, they're feeling isolated, they're feeling unsupported. Are there those levels of trust? People you know perhaps not wanting to come into the workplace? They're wanting, you know, their own version of individuality.
Speaker 3:So you know, you put all that together and I guess where I'd summarize is that the way that we measure a lot of that is all based on interventions and theories and studies that were all done 10 years or more ago. If we take employee engagement, for example, you know the two most common platforms out there are both more than 10 years old. One of them is more than nearly close to 50 years old. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3:And I kind of have to ask myself why are we still measuring things in the same way? If people and work has changed so much, how can we be measuring, you know, employee engagement or cultural factors in the same way? So I guess that's where I believe that, whilst OD and being recognised as an integral part of, you know, hr functioning, the perhaps lack of evolution is occurring in that we're still relying on pre-covid interventions for a lot of the solutions, and you know that's twofold, in that I think hr people are just spinning wheels, just trying to, you know, trying to get stuff done in the myriad of things that need to be completed. But also we, you know it's not an area that is well researched because the research is owned by a lot of commercial operators and you know, essentially I don't know when, when, when it becomes really commercial.
Speaker 3:You know, then it's not accessible for all so I get that leads me to where you know where my work and passion lies, in that you know doing research that is available to all people. Work and passion lies in doing research that is available to all people in terms of being able to further solutions, or even, at the moment, just thinking around a lot of the stuff that we're doing and how we're measuring it is perhaps not the greatest way, because measuring employee engagement by have you been within the next two years?
Speaker 3:do you feel like you'll be at this job? I don't think there's anyone in the world that is you know thinks that the two-year tenure is reasonable anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3:I don't think anyone would answer yes to that question, and then my other argument on that would be is that a measure of employee engagement, or is that a measure of commitment and loyalty? But anyway, there you go, there you go. You've got my spiel on all that. That's so interesting it really is.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting. And even on that question, like when I was starting my professional career, I don't think it was two years, it's where do you see yourself the next five years? So at least they've reduced it. But yeah, I agree, two years like who knows. And then with the it makes such an interesting point, marnie, because I think, with the research and the models that are out there and everything that's happened post-COVID but then the pace of everything now we were talking about this before we even jumped on the episode is how quickly things move, and technology obviously has a big part to play in that. But how quickly things move and how demanding people are now for results, answers, action, and to think that, when it comes down to a lot of the strategies and models that we try to follow in HR, yeah, maybe some of it is quite outdated because the workforce has changed, the demands have changed.
Speaker 2:You know, if we had this conversation 12 months ago maybe a bit more than 12 months, but it would be very much focused on talent shortage and employers trying to do everything they can to attract people. Now the goalposts have changed a little bit, particularly in certain industries, and restructures and redundancies are still happening. I'm seeing daily posts not just one person but several people out of that organization being let go, and companies are getting tighter with um who they're hiring and um, yes, they've done some great things from a retention perspective, but also um, you know, maybe I'm sort of talking um a little off topic now, but I feel like a lot of organizations just kind of hired, hired, hired, um and then press the panic button and could cost you know as much as they physically could. Now there's lots of people out in the market um, but also, what can we learn from this? What can we learn moving forward? Because that was a very rapid change in in in a two-year cycle. Um, stuff like that normally takes 10 years to happen. We it happened in two.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I don't know, maybe I've rambled on you're so right and I think so two things on. That is that you know, I think there's only one real skill needed for people in the workforce of the future and that's agility. You know, the ability to learn, unlearn, de--learn, that is the biggest skill, because, if you can, you know, I always picture myself as like that jester spinning plates, and then you go nope, everything's full, and then you get that last plate and you're like well.
Speaker 3:I'm going to have to learn how to spin that on my elbow now. So that's a little visual that I hold in my head. I think that will separate, you know, know, success from um struggle in in right now and in the future, but also the other. The other thing is that, you know, I think in HR we prize, we prize retention and I I do think retention is important, but I don't think it's important in the same way that it was previously, because you know, to your question, where do you want to be in two years' time? You know, I kind of go, if you're not evolving in your role within like a year, 18 months, you're going too slow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you know, I want to. You know, and this is only based on you know, people who are in that stage of their lives when they want to. You know, and this is only based on you know, people who are in that stage of their lives when they want to grow and develop and progress and their career is their focus. And notwithstanding people who say, no, career is not my focus, and I, you know, love and respect that as well. It's, you know, I think, if career is your focus, I think you know, retention just needs to be challenged. And you know, uh, if you're not saying lots of different things and how lots of different things are working, yeah, if you're doing what you always do, you'll get what you always got yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great way, great way of putting it.
Speaker 2:Now mindful time and I don't want to keep you for too much longer, but I feel like we could be, we could flesh that out for the next couple of hours, so maybe maybe we look at a pair of two series. But a couple of short questions for you, marnie, before you go. You touched on it a bit earlier. Maybe it's not that person, maybe it's several people, but most influential person or persons like HR related or just anything.
Speaker 3:Anyone, yeah, anyone anything my favourite person in the world, bar my partner and my family. I love Carly Minogue. I love Carly Minogue. I love everything. She is, who she stands for, her music, everything else. And I think you know her winning a Grammy at this age, you know, this year, and just coming back with one of the biggest songs of the year, how she reinvents, how she, you know, just is, but is also really true to herself. Yeah, it just is, is, but it's also really true to myself. Uh, I, yeah, I fangirl over carly, you know massively. So, um, and I could.
Speaker 3:That's a whole other episode if we, yeah, yeah, yeah incredible, carly, is that her ability to, yeah, her ability to reinvent and just stay relevant, but also, I think, ultimately with what she's, you know, gone through in her life and career and you know, love, life, health, et cetera like it hasn't. You know, it hasn't always been an easy ride, but I love the fact that you know she's also that celebrity that you know you're never hearing controversial things about her you know falling out of a car drunk, or you know being nasty, or you know derogatory like she's yeah, she's an icon.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that. Well, kylie, if you're listening, big kudos to you, please be listening Kylie, call me, call me.
Speaker 2:And actually on that as well, what I really like about that, uh, manny, is we can learn so much from, from people like like harley, whereas you know, um, they've adapted, they've reinvented, you know they've um, and they've stayed sort of relevant and at the top of their game. And I think you know we relate that back to companies and performance and recruitment and you know, and HR generally, it's it's it's moving with the times and, yeah, we're not always going to be on a, on an incline, because that's just not physically possible. Like there will be lots of dips in the road, so we kind of have to learn how to pivot over them or pivot through them.
Speaker 3:Best lesson learned um, best lesson learned? Um, best lesson learned is is probably always those uh lessons of of self-reflection and, and I think the best lessons that I've learned is, whilst my intentions in my head may be one thing, how to show up my impact on others is is, you know, at times, others. So best lesson is learning how to uh align intention and the impact of the reality of my impact yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Um last one for you who do you inspire who do I inspire?
Speaker 3:oh goodness I don't know I'd hope, um, you know I'd hope through the people that I work with and and you know, I believe that we are a product of the people that we have around us. And you know, in the same way that I, you know when you're with people, you go god, I love that about you. You know when you have that little thing in your head that you say and you, you know when you're with people and you go God, I love that about you.
Speaker 3:You know when you have that little thing in your head that you say and you go, you know you know, I just hope that at times, yeah, that people have, you know, learnt things, done things as a result of you know, a relationship with me, and yeah, but I think that would be up to each individual and you know, and their own journey. But, yeah, I think that would be up to each individual and you know, and their own journey. But yeah, I think, ultimately, as humans, we want to have a really positive impact on those around us and yeah, and I think my ultimate, the ultimate inspiration would be that you know I take what I do really seriously and you know you can probably tell by my study and my investment in the HR field that I do, but I don't take myself very seriously, so I can be quite silly and I like to have fun at work. My saying is I'm here for long enough, so you know I'm here for a good time.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that and I'm sure the study has proven that when you enjoy something and you're passionate about something, you can have fun with it and it doesn't feel like work, which I, which I get the sense of um well.
Speaker 3:As mary puffin said, with an element of fun, a job can become a game there you go, there you go.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much mary, it's been an absolute pleasure and, uh, I do mean it. I feel like we could have sat there and spoke for a lot longer, but um might have loved your, but we'll have to do it again sometime. Thank you again and thanks everyone for tuning in and listening.
Speaker 3:Thanks, shane, so great, so great to speak to you. Bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning in to the HR Community Podcast. Remember to like and subscribe and share your views and comments below. This podcast was brought to you by Civitas Talent, the HR and HSC recruitment community. Whether you're a candidate looking for a new role or organization looking to secure brand new talent for your team, please get in touch with us today, thank you.
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