The HR Community Podcast
Subscibe here: https://www.youtube.com/@civitastalent_HRrecruitment
Civitas Talent is excited to bring you a series of podcasts dedicated to the HR community. This is a space where you can learn best-practice solutions from HR community leaders, with host Shane O'Neill.
Whether you’re a CEO, HR executive or operating across the wider HR sector - this podcast is for you!
The HR Community Podcast
The HR Community Podcast: Jamila Malkoun, HESTA, Advancing Talent Acquisition and HR Strategies
Ready to reshape your HR strategies and gain insights from a seasoned professional? In this episode, we promise to equip you with advanced hiring techniques and innovative practices as we chat with Jamila Malkoun from HESTA. Jamila is currently, TA Lead with HESTA and operated in several HR positions within utilities, retail and financial services sectors.
Jamila takes us on a journey from her beginnings in HR and payroll, evolving into leading HESTA's talent acquisition team. Learn how she revolutionized the hiring process with the talent acquisition partner model, resulting in significant organizational growth. Her multifaceted HR background has allowed her to forge strategic hiring practices that align seamlessly with company goals.
We also tackle the hurdles and adaptations in HR brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic, from transitioning to remote work to mastering Zoom interviews. Jamila shares her personal experiences and light-hearted anecdotes about the unexpected quirks of remote interviewing, shedding light on the humane aspects that remain crucial in the recruitment process. Additionally, we delve into the significance of personal branding for talent acquisition professionals, highlighting how engaging storytelling and sharing personal experiences on platforms like LinkedIn can transform your recruitment strategy. Tune in for actionable advice and forward-thinking perspectives that will redefine your approach to HR and talent acquisition.
Welcome to the HR Community Podcast. My name is Shane O'Neill, founder of Sila Tass Talent, the HR and HSE recruitment community. Each episode, we will host HR leaders and discuss their journey and discover best practice HR solutions across the HR industry. Whether you're a CEO, hr executive or operating across the wider HR space, this podcast is for you. Please like and subscribe, and don't forget to comment and share your views. Enjoy the episode. Good morning everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the HR Community Podcast. This morning I'm joined with Jamila Malkoon from HESTA. Good morning, jamila.
Speaker 2:Morning Shane. How are you going?
Speaker 1:I'm very good. I'm very good. Before we jumped on everyone, we were just having a little chat about the weather at the moment, Everyone coming down with the cold, so bear with us while we power through Over to you. Jamila, Give us a little bit of an overview who you were and a little bit about Hesta and your role there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, shane, and yes, we asked. I don't know whoever's listening from Melbourne, but it is absolutely freezing. Today was one degrees in the morning, so yeah, shane and I were. Today was one degrees in the morning so, yes, shani and I were talking about how cold it's been. So I work for Hester. So I lead the talent acquisition team at Hester. I've got three wonderful talent partners that report into me that certainly take care of the hiring needs of our business.
Speaker 2:I've been at Hester for just over four and a bit years. Hester is an industry super fund for the health and community sector and so we do some great work in that space. Before Hester I hadn't been in financial services, so this was certainly a big learning curve for me. So my career spans probably about 23, 24 years in HR. So I started off as a actually working in as a personnel officer in Maya many, many moons ago doing sort of contracting rostering. Then I moved into payroll and then from payroll I moved into a HR consultant coordinator role and then through the years have become a HR business partner, led HR ops teams and then throughout my career I have had sort of recruitment in there but never really led a function up until now.
Speaker 2:So I think the lots of sort of business acumen, commercial acumen, sort of generalist HR and working with people and different types of people for many to how I lead the talent acquisition team.
Speaker 2:So certainly when I first started there wasn't a dedicated talent acquisition function here at Hester. So we had a couple of generalist recruiters that you know, when a role came in, depending on who had how many roles, they would then get allocated the role and then they would go out and help the hiring manager with that recruitment assignment. And then I sort of came in and thought, oh, I reckon we can change this up a bit and so I introduced like a talent acquisition partner model where they, you know, they had certain client groups for good, so they kind of immersed themselves with the business, got to know the hiring managers and really partnered with the business on what their talent needs were. And that seemed to have helped Hester grow in numbers, which is great, because I joined Hester in a period of growth. So we've sort of doubled and a half in size in the last sort of four years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's unreal. And I remember a couple of weeks ago when we were speaking and we were starting to plan the podcast and we both started to talk a little bit about your experience which you just touched on. Started to talk a little bit about your experience which you just touched on and, um, I was saying how, from a um hr perspective, often um people I speak to generally they'll come from the more traditional hr route or maybe they've come from a recruitment route into hr where you've kind of done it the other way around. You've gone through the, the HR generalist, from HR to payroll and everywhere in between, and then you've sort of delved into the talent acquisition side, do you feel, with your experience already on, I guess, the other side and within the wider people consciousness, that was kind of an advantage, walking into talent talent because you could kind of see it at different lenses or I definitely, definitely, which is kind of why I touched on before around how I thought oh, I don't know if a recruitment generalist is what we need.
Speaker 2:It is quite a reactive role. How about we take the hr business partner model and sort of apply that to talent? And it seemed to it worked wonders, because hiring managers really appreciated someone that kind of understood where they were coming from, what they needed, what their team was doing, what the market was like. So it was a good education piece for them. So I think, coming in with that lens around and you know things like we look at workforce planning, we look at employer brand, we look at innovative ways that we can source, and I think, having worked for many years across many different areas, I've kind of had a sort of a more broader approach, not just how am I going to fill bums on seats?
Speaker 2:It's like how are we going to do it in a very deliberate, purposeful way that's going to have an impact on the business and, in turn, our members, because that's what we're here for we're here to serve our members. And so for me, it was thinking big picture and getting the foundations of our team and our structure right so we can then service the business. Because it was kind of like um, you know, like you kind of got to fly the plane while building it, and so it was kind of having that balance of getting our team and our people right in order to service the business at a time where they were still growing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah, and you touched on that a little bit as well. So when you joined HESTA, obviously they were in a growth phase and I mean, obviously that affects different roles in the business From a recruitment perspective. Sometimes that can unfortunately fall into bums on seats, because you're looking at bodies and you're trying to fill roles. What do you feel? And just building off that, what you were speaking about there, what do you feel you could kind of bring to the table and do a little bit different so you could actually focus on getting the right person or people into the roles and supporting the retention side, because without retention you're not really going to grow. You're just reactively trying to fill roles over and over and over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, it is a really hard balance, especially if you've got a certain number of roles you need to fill in a certain number of time. And many of us can fall into the trap of sort of it's good enough as opposed to it's perfect. And I think you've got to balance the sort of quality versus quantity rules. But we always kind of focused on the quality and I think it's really important for our talent partners to be able to manage their stakeholders and say this may take a little bit longer, but I assure you we can get the right person. So, if you can manage the expectations of the hiring manager around how long it will take and you ask them the question do you want us to fill this role super quick but not necessarily find you the perfect person, or do you want to give it a little bit of time and make sure we get the right person?
Speaker 2:And what's also important is the ability to sort of know which roles are coming up, and so we're not just okay, I get a recruitment assignment in the system, now I've got to go out and recruit. Our team knows what's coming up in each of their client areas, and so the client, the business group, may not need that person until, say, you know we could be in July and they don't need them until November. It doesn't mean in October we start. So we start looking at the market and very much talent pooling, keeping candidates warm, reaching out and a lot of that then helps time to fill, you know, in some very niche roles. So I think it's important for that pre-planning and managing expectations of the hiring manager that these things don't just happen in two weeks.
Speaker 1:Exactly right. Do you find as well, given your season experience in HR which some can relate a lot to, I guess, um, business psychology and psychology in general, like, do you feel that experience as well enabled you to sort of think a bit more bigger picture with talent acquisition? Because I guess you're trying to assess not just someone's skills. You're trying to assess, okay, is someone's skills. You're trying to assess, okay, is this someone that's going to be with our business for a very long time? And generally you're assessing a hiring manager as to what they really need and want from the role, and maybe it's not what they have in their head at all, maybe it's completely different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what's really crucial in our area is the relationship management. So it's a relationship management with the hiring managers, but it's also with the candidates and also with the rest of the business, and to me that's really important to be able to kind of speak up when you need to speak up and to kind of know when to pull back and not. So there's some managers they're all kind of different people, different styles, so it's very situational management and so some managers are really involved and want to, you know, get in there and shortlist straight away and they're happy to look at hundreds of applications and they're happy to do this. And they're happy to write the guides and they're happy to do this.
Speaker 2:We've got other hiring managers where they may be a little bit time poor or they really trust their talent partner because their talent partners are SME in their space and will go just you know what? Just tell me the top five, pick after you, shortlist and screen them and then I'll have a look and then we'll decide on who we progress. So I've said to all the talent partners what's really important is that brief right at the start, kind of that recruitment brief around understanding the role and understanding who's doing what and when, because the moment that kind of breaks down, then expectations don't get met because they assume that this is going to happen or that's not going to happen. So I think the relationship component is is equally as important as the end result of who you get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who you hire for them yeah, exactly right, and with your experience as well. Um, jamila, did you find that, um, you fell into a lot of these diverse industries? Because I know you touched on Meijer, obviously, retail, you're at City West and now Hester, so obviously all very, very different organizations in what they do and where they're categorized as an industry. Was that always the plan, were the industries of preference, or did you just sort of fall into them and that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:look, I wouldn't say like I was deliberate about the types of industries I wanted to go in. I think I was a little bit deliberate about having a variety of industries. So I kind of started off, started off in sort of retail corporate and then, you know, moved to sort of um, infrastructure services, delivery, and then I went to a water utility and now I'm in financial services. So it wasn't. I think it's important to have, you know, varied industry experience, but it wasn't something I kind of set out to pick certain industries. I think, at the end of the day, we're all humans anyway. So you are still, no matter what industry you're dealing with, you are still dealing with very different people. It doesn't matter what industry you go into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and speaking of dealing with people, when you joined Hester because looking back at the time cap, it was kind of around the same time we started our business, which was around that COVID era Dare, I say I swore I wouldn't say the word again, but around that COVID era as well Did you feel like that was a very not so much challenging but it was a very interesting time, I guess, from a talent perspective, because one minute you're growing and you're hiring and you're out in the market. Next minute there's a lot of question marks. The next minute we're back out again. And I mean now I know in my world there's pockets of HR that are super, super busy and there's pockets like talent that are a little bit quieter. Did you find it was a bit of a journey over those four years?
Speaker 2:um. Did you find?
Speaker 2:it was a bit of a journey over those four years, yeah, especially from a personal perspective. So I joined I joined Hester in February of 2020 and then I was kind of working sort of five, six weeks into it and then it the, the order was to everyone work from home. So I felt like, oh, I'm just sort of getting to know people and getting to know the industry. Now I'm kind of at home on my own in front of my laptop. So for me it was a bit of a personal growth opportunity. I'll say there's sort of a positive spin on it.
Speaker 2:So for me, getting to know a new industry, getting to know a new role, getting to know a new team very early weeks and then going fully remote, I personally found it a very hard adjustment and you probably can't tell, but I'm a very people's person and so I felt a little bit isolated and I felt I had hardly worked from home too, so it wasn't something that I was used to doing.
Speaker 2:So not having the physical presence of people for me was a challenge. But, um, from a, from a, I suppose, job and position perspective, um, we had to change our process super quick. So we went straight to from, you know, face-to-face interviewing to zoom interviewing. Um, the way we reached out to candidates dealing with candidates that were in a very vulnerable way because a lot of companies panicked and sort of put a break, put breaks on hiring, and so all these candidates were left like, oh, there's nothing opened, we're in the middle of a pandemic, I'm out of work, no one's hiring, and so candidate emotions were quite high, and so I remember speaking to the team saying we need to be very mindful that these candidates are in a very vulnerable time too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so we kind of um actually changed outcomes a little bit. So what we wrote, wrote in emails was a little bit more personalised and how we dealt with them there was a little bit more of a sensitive approach. But our processes went fully remote like everybody else, and that was a bit of a change because we went from full in-person interviews to full Zoom interviews. So you know we also talk to hiring managers around what that means and how you should conduct yourself in a Zoom interview and you know distractions and things like that and I know many of us. During some of those interviews, you know we have kids in the background running around, and so we always have to say look, um, apologies if you see my kid running at the back of me.
Speaker 2:You know it's all good, and the candidates would have a bit of a giggle and go yes, me too, please don't. So you kind of had this um, I don't know, a bit more laid back approach in an interview, knowing that these people are interviewing in the, in their house, in their land room, when there's so much going on, and so it kind of just changed the approach. That's right. And then Zoom interviews were here to stay. Even when we went back to the office, we still have that as an option.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent and I really like the human touch there as well. Just even something simple like rewording the communication and the email like it goes a long way and it continues to nurture that kind of experience and the email like it goes a long way and it continues to nurture that kind of experience and the whole experience when you are, I guess, in a recruitment process in such a volatile time as well. But there's so many funny stories as well off the back of some of the Zoom interviews, like I know. I've been involved in some. I had one where the person started to swear a lot, where it turned out her cat was scraping her leg on the desk.
Speaker 2:Oh no, and so that was an instant ouch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's quite funny. But yeah, some reason, cats and webcams, um, cats would always go for them, for the camera straight away, but uh, seem to have made a really big appearance, and some not my, but there were some toddlers that didn't have any clothes running in the background as well, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was very, very cute and you did. Poor people that are in the interview would be mortified.
Speaker 1:Oh, you would be better you know, it's fine whatever said um and and even like, when we talk a little bit about that, that human touch, of that human element, um, and you said it yourself like zoom and and certain technology that we kind of had to just learn and adapt um in hr and talent acquisition pretty quickly. A lot of it's here to stay. What are your thoughts on, I guess, the future of tech and AI and stuff like that with relation to talent acquisition? Because I know a lot of companies I mean a lot of the big techs and even the big banks and stuff they've invested a lot in AI and tech to streamline their recruitment practices. But I know with some the technology is replacing some of the human element in part of the process. Have you done anything like that or what's your sort of opinion on a lot of that kind of stuff? Yeah, look we haven't yet.
Speaker 2:So a lot of our roles and for me I think it's very organisation dependent, so a lot of our roles are kind of that sort of niche. We've got a lot of niche, sort of hard-to-fill roles that we don't necessarily get the huge volume. So I don't know, you take a coal so they would get thousands of applications for roles and so you could see how AI would help streamline some of that shortlisting.
Speaker 2:And certainly I don't think AI is here to take jobs, but I think it's certainly here to to help enable us to be more effective at what we do and so how you use that technology is pretty important and I think um ensuring that, even if we do introduce ai, that it still um takes away some of that bias and is not going to replace all of the human element. So we are still, we will probably be introducing it at some stage, but we haven't I suppose we haven't introduced it yet in our process, because we are a smaller organisation, we don't have the volume like other companies and we want to make sure that we get it right so that our candidates aren't impacted negatively from it. Candidates aren't impacted negatively from it.
Speaker 2:And you know there is kind of talk around sort of that skills-based assessments too, and then AI has a lot to play in there. So you could get a candidate, when they apply to do a short I don't know, say, if their role involves a lot of Excel, you could give them a job related assessment and then the ai then kind of assesses everyone's score and then we'll present the top five people that score well in that, without even yeah, so without even kind of looking at the hundred applications that came through the ai, you know, based on all the algorithm although I mean I'm not a tech person but would then present the top five and you could see how, in high-volume roles that that would be beneficial.
Speaker 2:But also with skills-based, it's also basing it on someone that may not have the experience on paper, so you might look at them and go, oh, they want to apply for this role but they haven't really worked enough in it and you might even exclude them. Yeah, like a person will dread and go, you don't have it, I'm going to exclude you, but the skills-based assessment and the AR might go. Actually, they scored really well, you should look at them.
Speaker 1:And then you might go.
Speaker 2:Oh, surprised me. So I I can see the benefit in it 100, but I think you just got to get your sort of backyard and your landscape right to then introduce it. So there's a minimal impact because you want it to be a positive experience and you still don't want people to feel like, am I not gonna get in contact with any human at all in the process? And so we would. You know we would be very reluctant to take away that element just yet 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be honest. Yeah, it's a great way of putting it because, like I hear so many arguments for and against and look, I'm a big advocate of trying to make my role as easy and efficient as possible. So we've introduced different tech stacks and automation and explored some AI tools as well, which work. But, yeah, definitely, I'd say a good 90% of what we do is still that human element, because I think you need it and I think, even just to touch on some of the things you're talking about there, like the candidate experience I mean, you're speaking to a human. It's humans applying for the job. You want to give them that human element. I've also seen the other side of as well, where candidates are upskilling themselves in AI for the good or maybe not the good as well to try and advance their application and try and put their best foot forward. But I guess whether all of it is legit or not is another question, but yeah, it's really interesting. It really is.
Speaker 2:And sometimes you see kind of applications and cover letters and you kind of think, oh, is that fully chat, gbt resume and cover letter, or is it the human one? So I think we also have to be careful not to judge or assume. You know, someone might really be good at writing, yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. But there is that element coming through too, so you'll see more sophisticated cover letters and resumes coming out now because they've had GPT assist them in creating those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's all true, and even you'd see it on LinkedIn a lot, especially with different posts and stuff like that. I always have my sceptical hat on these days to see whether, okay, this is someone that's put their fingers on the keyboard and taught this post out, or is this a bot or a chat GBT LinkedIn social post? But yeah, it's hard to know. A couple of last questions for you, really, as we wrap up. We touched on a lot of your experience, especially coming from the more HR side of things into talent acquisition, and we talked about best practice, talent and how you kind of restructured the model to support the business, amongst other things. What would be your top three tips to um, any aspiring um people out there across hr talent or anyone that's in hr going? Hey, you know what I've always wanted to explore a bit more of a talent focused role like any. Any sort of tips from from your side?
Speaker 2:I think it's good to exercise some of your other hr muscles that you've you haven't before, and it's good to exercise some of your other HR muscles that you haven't before, and it's not as daunting as what you think it is, because there's a lot of transferable skills out there, and I think you also want to make yourself a little bit more indispensable, too, in terms of yeah, I can work on that and I can also work on this, and so demonstrate your full capability in whichever HR stream that you go, because it's always good to extend yourself to other parts to see which one you really like.
Speaker 2:It's almost like I don't know nursing sometimes, so you could do your general nursing degree and then you specialise in what type of stream you like, whether that's paediatrics, cosmetic emergency, you know those kind of things, and so, at the end of the day, we're all HR practitioners.
Speaker 2:We just have different streams at different times, and so I think it's don't be afraid to give it a go and also come in with a bit of a business mind so you're able to balance exactly what your business needs versus what your people need, versus what your candidates need, because you don't want to lean too heavy on one area, and then that impacts and has a bad effect on the other. So try and kind of come in with everyone's perspective and just adjust to who you're dealing with. I think that's two, isn't it? Yeah, and what's the other thing? I think lean into social media a bit. Okay. I've dealt with a few recruiters over the years that get nervous about putting themselves out there, and so I think if you're able to build your brand as a talent acquisition specialist, people follow the journey, not the role.
Speaker 1:So I often say to them, don't just.
Speaker 2:My advice is don't just post a role and say great opportunity, and then you have a link Like show them a bit about yourself. Like I often share things on LinkedIn about me personally or about a project I've worked on, or about I don't know a day that I've done it's volunteering or something because it's helped me build my followers and my brand. So then when I do want to share something about a role or an opportunity, people go oh yeah, that sounds pretty good. I want to learn a bit more. If I just shared job opportunities on my page, I wouldn't probably have the effect that it does.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I've had people reach out to me for a numerous amount of things, even when they're kind of passive and not really looking for a role. So it seems like you know it's really good, it's really fun. So you want to sell the vibe and the experience, not just the job, and I think that's pretty crucial in. You know everyone's on socials these days, you know LinkedIn's massive, and so why don't you leverage that rather than just leverage your job adverts?
Speaker 2:And so when you do reach out to people. When you do are sending them in-mails that it's not just the cold. We've got a job for you, like even your in-mails. We've done a lot of work on that where we kind of tell the story and then we say if you want to know more, reach out. Rather, than just saying there's a job we think you'd be suitable for and our in-mail response rates are above average. Wow, that's amazing. To our competitors, because we again, we're not just factual.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, we're like, we've got a personality, you know so I love that, yeah, I love that and I think it's so important and like, like, I've seen it a lot, as you have, even on the branding side, um, I've seen people just kind of regurgitate the the same company, um brand and story, um, over and over and over, whereas sometimes you know the people itself can tell their story. So, like the talent team, as individuals, they're on there, they're social, they're engaging, they're telling the story and, like you say, sometimes people are thinking, okay, I need a new role, I might apply to this role, and they're not just thinking, okay, I want to apply to this employer, I might want to speak to this talent person who I've followed their journey through the years and I'd be really interested to get their market insight, their guidance or whatever, which I think is really cool. So that's a really good point, really good point. I might feel we're going over.
Speaker 2:I know sorry, I'm vivid talker.
Speaker 1:clearly Not at all, not at all. Thank you so much for jumping on. Uh, I think that was really really interesting, really insightful and, um, I mean, I am a bit biased because I've been recruiting myself, but I could sit here and talk about talent all day, every day but so could I.
Speaker 2:So could I I don't, clearly I'm not sure, I'm not afraid. You know I'm not shy a couple of words here and there. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I look forward to you know, whoever's listening. You know, let's connect in and thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:No worries at all. Thanks for joining us, Jamila, and have a good day. Thanks, Shane Bye. Thank you for tuning in to the HR Community Podcast. Remember to like and subscribe and share your views and comments below. This podcast was brought to you by Civitas Talent, the HR and HSC recruitment community. Whether you're a candidate looking for a new role or organization looking to secure brand new talent for your team, please get in touch with us today. Thank you.
.png)