The HR Community Podcast
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Civitas Talent is excited to bring you a series of podcasts dedicated to the HR community. This is a space where you can learn best-practice solutions from HR community leaders, with host Shane O'Neill.
Whether you’re a CEO, HR executive or operating across the wider HR sector - this podcast is for you!
The HR Community Podcast
Transforming our business: Catherine Flynn's Strategic HR Leadership Journey at CSR
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Welcome to the HR Community Podcast. My name is Shane O'Neill, founder of Sila Tass Talent, the HR and HSE recruitment community. Each episode, we will host HR leaders and discuss their journey and discover best practice HR solutions across the HR industry. Whether you're a CEO, hr executive or operating across the wider HR space, this podcast is for you. Please like and subscribe, and don't forget to comment and share your views. Enjoy the episode. Good morning everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the HR Community Podcast. My name is Shane O'Neill, director of Civitas Talent, and this morning I'm joined with Catherine Flynn. Catherine is the HR Director for CSR Limited. Good morning, catherine.
Speaker 2:Hi Shane.
Speaker 1:Lovely to see you. Thanks for joining. We spoke a little bit and I'm trying to think when it was. It was a couple of months ago and we were obviously first having a discussion around the podcast and your story and journey. I know exactly who CSR Limited are, but for those that don't, did you want to maybe tell everyone a little bit about? Well, firstly, who you are, catherine, a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your role and a little bit about CSR?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great. So I'm Catherine Flynn. I'm the Executive General Manager of HR for CSR and I joined in 2020 as a member of the executive team and at the time, the CEO, a former colleague of mine, Julie Coates from Woolworths, was tasked with a really ambitious agenda for transformation and riding the backdrop of uncertainty with COVID and that just gets me out of bed in the morning. So I love these really challenging changes and I love a transformation environment. So a little bit about CSR. So CSR is 170 years old this year with a really colourful past.
Speaker 2:People sometimes know us for the sugar brand, which was actually sold off to Wilmar International in 2012, so quite a while back now. And what we're really about is building products with many Wilmar International in 2012, so quite a while back now. And what we're really about is building products with many of the major brands, like Gyproc, which is actually a brand and it's a household name for plasterboard, and we also make Monia Roof Tiles, bradford Insulation, pgh Bricks, amongst other products, and I guess for us you there's we don't have enough homes for people in Australia, and so I think we play a really important role in um in helping solve that problem yeah, definitely, and I think, um, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:I feel like everyone can relate to the industry of construction in some shape or form, like I know, when I spent my days on sites many, many years ago now, and it obviously didn't work out in my favor Otherwise I'd still be there. I went on to a completely different profession, but I recall operating a lot of the materials that CSR and your brands would supply, so and it was a really interesting period for CSR but the wider industry over the last couple of years, with the supply chain side of things and you know material shortages and stuff like that. So we can delve into some of that and a bit more of your journey, which I'm definitely keen to hear more about. So you joined at a really interesting time, catherine. So I guess tell us a little bit about that, like when you joined, like what was the initial agenda? Because we were going through that real unknown period in time with COVIDbyn, the pandemic and the economy and stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing was so the board had tasked a new CEO with a really ambitious agenda for change and transformation, and the great thing was that she wasn't backing away from that. But the first thing we had to do was keep our people safe, keep our heads above water to keep our people employed and then try and keep serving our customers, and so that remained our sort of guiding. They sound simple, but, you know, in that period and then the challenge that we were tasked with during those four to five years was taking an organisation that was really good at making and selling things really good at making and selling really good things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great.
Speaker 2:So you're turning those things into solutions? Yeah, so being able to go to market to, you know, to help someone build a hospital or build a school, by bringing all of our products together into solutions, to help someone build a hospital or build a school by bringing all of our products together into solutions, and so to unlock that opportunity, we had to implement or digitise many of our processes. Yeah, we had to break down traditional silos within the business in order to help people to work together rather than, in a lot of cases, are actually competing against one another. And we also had to come up with supply chain solution and you touched on supply chain before so that turned out, during those challenging few years of COVID, to be really, I think, instrumental in our ability to continue to outperform. So, yeah, so that's what it was about.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I know you're a huge advocate for transformation and change and we will get into that, but let's sort of take it back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your journey in HR, catherine. So I guess one question that I'll always ask senior leaders like yourself is why HR? Why was that the career choice? Or was it the career choice and then you was it not the career choice and then you transitioned it at some stage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, at first I didn't know. What I did know was, uh, since I was a little kid, I actually did have an interest in workplace dynamics, so, um, so my dad was a shop steward he was he still I thought he was a fitter and he was a shop steward and he used to bring home all these really interesting stories about workplaces and leadership and workplace dynamics and culture, and so I think I just always had that interest. And then, you know, woke up one day and realized, and that I wanted to do HR, which was called personnel management at the time. So, yeah, so that's what got me interested.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And then from there you've obviously worked in different industries, different brands, different sectors. I mean some of the you know major household names. I know we touched on CSO and Gyproc and those brands, but also Woolworths, and you know there's a lot of brands that people can relate to there. So was there in that journey, certain industries or brands that you started to target, or it all just kind of landed as it did, or yeah, I think some of it was a bit accidental and some of it was what I was drawn to.
Speaker 2:So I actually started out at Woolworths on a temp contract helping to recruit trainees, and ended up staying for 25 years because I just loved it and I still love it. I still love being in a supermarket or a warehouse. I love being in a supermarket or a warehouse, I love that environment, but also it's such a big and diverse organisation and I had access, as everyone did, to a wealth of opportunities, not just in retail, but I spent six years in manufacturing while I was with Woolworths. I spent time in New Zealand supply chain, corporate services, yeah, so I had a really diverse career there. And then always, as I said before, I had that passion for a blue-collar workforce and I had the opportunity to join Goodman Fielder, which is a manufacturing company, in 2015. They'd just been acquired in a joint venture, so that had some really interesting opportunities and challenges.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And then, like, I mean the industries as well. I find really intriguing because, you know, retail obviously went through a lot of transformation over the last couple of decades, as did food, as did digital materials and supplies last couple of decades, as did food, as did visual materials and supplies. Maybe from a HR perspective, like, have you seen HR transform and your role transform in those industries that are?
Speaker 2:also going through a lot of change and evolution. Yeah, a lot. I mean I think the profession has changed significantly and so has the expectation of us, and I really think now the expectation of HR is very much as a strategic business partner and trusted advisor, but also to be highly commercial in solving some of the really challenging problems that businesses have.
Speaker 2:But when I started out we were manually updating record cards every week this shows my age, I guess, and you know we had a procedure for maintaining the long service leave records manually with a typewriter. So, having said all of that, I think I've always had the choice to be an administrator of a HR process or an influencer of change at every stage in my career, and I think that's probably back to your other question also why I've gravitated to the more people-intense operational environments. And it's commonplace now that we have a seat at the table as HR professionals and all of my team have a seat at the various tables that they're partnering as strategic partners. Yeah, and so I think you know. For us we still have that choice. We can just maintain an even keel, steady as she goes, or we can keep challenging leaders' minds and the way businesses work for competitive advantage, and I'd prefer the latter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and I agree with you. Like I mean, there are some organisations, believe it or not, that are quite manual and paper-based, but I've seen, definitely over the last decade, that evolution of systems and technology that's really enhanced our role in HR and I feel like, particularly in this kind of climate, there's a lot of businesses leaning into HR for more proactive and strategic solutions, whereas before you maybe didn't have that seat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, tell us a little bit about your, I guess, your change agenda so I know we touched on it or maybe scraped the surface a little bit with your transformation and change advocacy. Tell us a little bit about that, catherine, in terms of, like, your change of agenda, agenda, um, transformation, um you know what, what's really sort of been part of um, your, uh, your driving seat over the last couple of years well, I think it always starts with the business strategy and, um, I always ask myself what's the culture and what's the capability that you need to deliver on the business agenda.
Speaker 2:And then I think data is a really important tool for HR to be able to influence change. And I think when we're clear on what the business strategy is and we're working towards answering those two questions what's the culture and what's the capability you can then start to come up with some of the problem statements or hypotheses that might be getting in the way of getting to that place for the organisation and test it with data and, I think, benchmarking as well. So, really looking at what does best practice look like? How are other organizations set up and actually taking a really objective, data-driven approach to challenge traditional mindsets, because often you know, change is hard and leaders I think leaders are really good often at taking care of their people, but maybe not having the tools to challenge the status quo. But when you can help with objective data to say, okay, we're doing it this way today and it's possible to do it this way and these are the numbers, I think that that really, really helps. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And then you touched on a little bit of transformation at CSR at the beginning of the conversation. Do you find as well, with regards to that ability to influence and, I guess, take people along on the journey, I guess once people start getting used to the change, it becomes a bit more of a norm to the change. It becomes a bit more of a norm and then all of a sudden your organization and its culture and and the wider business starts to become a bit more of a um. You know, leniency towards, towards change and um and be a bit more agile I guess is is the best way of putting it do you feel like maybe um as well in your role and at CSO, through that journey, like through the pandemic, and trying to really redefine how you support your customers and your people? That was sort of setting everything up for your overall transformation and change.
Speaker 2:I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't.
Speaker 2:I think, as human beings, we like comfort we do, yeah, and we like safety, and so I think it's natural that people don't like change if they don't have to.
Speaker 2:But I do think you can build that muscle for change and one of the things that we did that we're really proud of in implementing the digital, the supply chain, the customer solutions changes. We knew that we had to get through that layer. So we had our direct reports and then their direct reports, and we knew we had to get through that layer to start to influence a couple of levels down into the organisation. To start to influence a couple of levels down into the organisation and what people do love is being developed and knowing that they've got a career and a future. So we combined the two problems if you like, kill two birds with one stone and we created the Change Leadership Academy at CSR and we invited our people to. So it was an open invitation for people to sign up to the Change Leadership Academy and we worked with those people through self-leadership, through influencing skills, through how to lead and manage change, and then we then created an alumni out of that group.
Speaker 2:Great idea yeah, so they're now really instrumental in leading change and facing into change in the business. So you know, even though it's not necessarily comfortable, it's not as daunting, and so we're going to run that program again this year. But I really think for me, culture change takes time and patience and perseverance, which I'm not a patient person, so that's not easy to turn my head around sometimes, but it does take patience.
Speaker 2:I think understanding the as-is state is really important. So we've had some learnings around the importance of understanding the as-is state in order to help people get to the to-be state. And when we didn't do that, when we didn't do a good job of that, we didn't do as good a job of change. You know I talked about the Change Leadership Academy. I can't say that that's an original idea. It really came from Cotter's Eight Steps of Change, which is a really yeah, well-known book, and then I think a communication strategy is just really essential and keep refreshing it and keep evolving it.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, yeah, and I love the idea of the academy and, as well, how you described it, because it sounded like it was very open door policy and it gave people that ability to not just learn and understand what's happening in the business from a change perspective, but also have a bit of a voice to get involved and to be advocates as well. So, yeah, great, great, great incentive. The other thing I was going to ask you is I mean, we talk a lot about change and transformation and, of course, course, some of that does come with challenges, both currently and into the future. If you have had your crystal ball, catherine, what sort of challenges do you see ahead for HR as a profession, as a function?
Speaker 2:um, as we look into the future, yeah, yeah, I think, um, I think job design and work design is a competency that the hr profession talks about, but, um, with respect to all of my colleagues out there, I still think we've got to build that competency.
Speaker 2:I don't know that we're great at it yet, and I think it's becoming more and more important If you think about the impact of megatrends like AI, cost of living, ageing population. We need to be able to assess and design work into meaningful jobs for people that give satisfaction and also drive value for shareholders. And so I think it's easy to put boxes on an org chart and names in the boxes, but actually designing the work in a rapidly changing world is becoming, I think, more important. We've got the tools to do job evaluation and come up with the right compensation and, I think, more important, we've got the tools to do, you know, job evaluation and come up with the right compensation and, as I said, design the org chart. But I think it's what sits beneath, yeah, so I think that that's really important. So we've been trying some tools to improve our ability to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, and I know in my community we had a workshop recently I was telling you a bit about it offline where you know there was some really interesting conversations in the room and there was a great discussion on, I guess, the role in HR, our roles in HR, you know, and you're looking at that sort of more junior, process-driven role that's probably going to be most affected with the introduction of AI and further enhanced technology. And we've already seen that with you know some organizations have your AI chatbots and your escalations level one and two being managed by that sort of process. But then it's also going to start creating and involving different roles as well. So I guess the role of a business partner can be real hands-on strategic.
Speaker 1:Know, I know it is um, but often we get pulled back into the um the administration side, at times reporting, so it's in in some shape or form. It's sort of um a risk to some roles and responsibilities, but also evolving um, evolving others, and we'll see the introduction of new roles as well, as we have over the last decade with hr system and reporting roles and people analytic roles. I know you touched on data a few times there, so you know we're seeing that in the recruitment side of things as well, there's a lot of demand for data at the moment, and particularly, you know, from HR leadership through to your business partner and centre of excellence you know you need to be across data in some shape or form excellence. You know you need to be across data in some shape or form.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree and I think you know a lot of HR work is. You know process and discipline and often we can train our minds to think about tasks, but actually you know to your point to take advantage of AI and the availability of data. I think we've got to become and it sounds easy, but more curious, and I think in HR and in other professions we've got to get a lot better at asking questions. That's right, whether we're asking questions of people or data or whether we're asking really good questions of AI. So I think there's a real opportunity for the HR profession there to use that curiosity to find opportunities.
Speaker 1:Definitely. Yeah, like that was another thing that's sort of come out of a lot of conversations we've been having recently as well, with the podcast and the workshops and other elements is HR have a great opportunity now to drive that conversation, not just leave it to the tech team or the IT leaders. I think we've got a great opportunity now to take the reins with us. On that note, I guess what advice would you give to any upcoming HR leaders? Catherine, I know we talked earlier in the conversation about your journey in HR, how much the profession has changed, how your roles have changed, how the organizations that you've worked in have transformed and changed where you've been a huge part of that huge part of that. So I guess for an upcoming HR leader, now you know they're already going to be hopefully upskilling in data and analytics and systems and stuff what advice would you give to those leaders that are sort of coming up the ranks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. My advice would be to go for the hard jobs, the ugly duckling jobs, the ones that no one else wants that have got the intractable problems to solve, because this is where you get the best experience, the most job satisfaction. You know, usually if no one else is going there, there's more problems for you to solve and you've probably got hours in the day and that's how you grow Love that I think to be most effective in your role, I'd say spend time regularly at the coalface of the business.
Speaker 2:So you know, often in HR, you know, even in operational businesses like the ones I've worked in, you can spend the majority of the time in the office and especially if you're listed, you know there's a lot of governance work to do. But spending time out in operations or with customers, I think, pays back tenfold on your time investment. And so I would also say have a small and reliable network that you can test your thinking, and this is another thing that always pays back and pays forward. So I'm really lucky with the organisations that I've worked in that you know I've got lifelong friendships from those. But you know, I've always got to find a friend. And then, finally, I think you, you know, take the time to celebrate and find the joy in the really small wins. Um, you know whether that's onboarding a fantastic new talent, or you get a phone call to say, hey, I thought that town hall was really great today. Um, in my mind, these things are better than the awards nights and the trophy. It's so true yeah um, really, really, um.
Speaker 1:You know, don't let those moments go by if you want to enjoy your hr career yeah, yeah, that's really good advice, like all all great, great piece of advice, and and I love that last piece as well as just in regards to that kind of more organic recognition along the way.
Speaker 1:And you know it's interesting because you talk a lot about networking and staying in touch with others in the field, and I think you know it sounds funny, but with all the technology and the systems and the applications that we have nowadays, it should seem like it's an easy thing to do, but it's almost like with the workload that we have, the fact that a lot of us, you know, work from home, work remotely as well it's created a bit of a separation with the networking side or ability to connect with others. So, yeah, being a phone call away is sometimes the more traditional but easier route. Yeah, absolutely Great. Thank you so much, catherine. I really appreciate you jumping on today. That was really insightful. I think you know we talked a lot about your journey and the businesses that you've operated in, and I know, like every conversation at the moment, we've got an opportunity to talk a little bit about the future of HR, its challenges and AI as well. So I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks, shane, have a great day.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning in to the HR Community Podcast. Remember to like and subscribe and share your views and comments below. This podcast was brought to you by Civitas Talent, the HR and HSC recruitment community. Whether you're a candidate looking for a new role or organization looking to secure brand new talent for your team, please get in touch with us today, thank you.
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